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 I Could Really Use Some Advice
- Nocturnal
Hi, I noticed your personal advice pages, and I really
like the advice you have to give people. And right now I
could I really use some of your advice, because I feel
really screwed up and I don't know what to do anymore.
And now I feel as though I can't trust my heart anymore.
My girlfriend and I broke up two months ago, after a
year and a half of spending virtually everyday together,
and I still love her more than I've loved anyone before,
and it was the weirdest break up I have ever experienced.
This is a long story but bear with me, and feel free to
edit anything out (i.e. my ex-girlfriend's name) for your
pages. Three months before things ended things were
getting a little rough, she was too easily irratable, and
she was taking it out on me, so a few times when I was
angry with her I said.."look maybe we need some
space". I didn't really mean it though, I was only
trying to make her think. Anyhow, one day she said that
SHE needed some space.."like a month or so" she
said. , I was feeling as though she was taking me for
granted for the last while anyways so I respected that
and said that that was ok with me. (even though it
wasn't). So a couple of days passed and she was back at
my door, and even though I let her in I had to insist
that she figure out what she wants before coming back to
me.
So for the next 3 weeks she called and called and
called and it was hurting me not knowing what she felt,
or if she was coming back or not. So I told her that I
thought it would be better for both of us if we didn't
talk for awhile. Before our "separation" she
asked me if it was ok if we wrote each other..and I said
it was fine with me..so I wrote her..and wrote her..and
wrote her...to remind her of how much I loved her (too
often maybe), and to tell her how I was feeling (hurt),
and that I needed to hear the truth, but she never
replied. I phoned her a couple of times but she wasn't
very receptive, in fact she was quite bitchy, and I would
break and tell her how hurt I was, (yet another mistake I
know I made), So time went by and one day she called and
I asked her out for cofee, "as friends", so we
saw each other and she was still saying the same things.
(i.e. she said "I can still see us settling down
together in a couple years, but not right now" ),
and I had never felt that way about anyone before..so I
kept the faith and belief that it was true, and still to
this day a little voice inside keeps telling me not to
give up and that "she's the one". Anyhow that
night I saw her was ok until I took her home...she asked
me how I was feeling about things..and I couldn't help
but say the truth. I asked her if she still loved me and
she said she still cared about me, I asked her again and
she got angry and yelled "Yes, I still love you
ok?!", so I asked her if she was looking for anyone
else and she said "no" and I replied by saying
"neither am I", and she said "I told you I
don't care if you see other people didn't I?" (And
she hadn't...just a long time ago when I was wrongly
upset because she wasn't aroused when I wanted her to be,
I said something I shouldn't have: "what do I need
to go somewhere else?" And her reply (allthough she
was very sweet when saying it) was.."it's ok..I
don't mind, I'd understand),
So that just got me...right there, but I didn't say
anything about it. So I asked her if I could walk her to
her door and she said no...then I did something real
dumb..I asked her for a kiss, and she could only give me
a hug. So I went home..and on the way home I'm thinking
to myself..."What the hell?? She says she still
loves me and she can still see herself settling down with
me..but she can't show me by giving me just a little
kiss?!!" "She says she doesn't care if I see
other people?" etc. etc. I wasn't expecting any huge
passionate kiss or anything..just a sign that what she
was saying was true. I was so upset I phoned her..and it
turned into the big fight. I hung up on her and we didn't
talk for ages after that. I wrote her another letter
because I still didn't know what was going on...Yes she
said we weren't going out anymore...(just like that), but
she never said it was over. So I dropped the letter off
and when I got home...there was a nice message on my
machine...she was obviously embarrased and annoyed that I
dropped the letter off on a Sunday while her parents were
home..(I could hear them all talking when I dropped the
letter off)...so she was angry...so she left this message
"It's OVER ok?? How many times do I have to tell
you? Don't write me anymore, and don't call me..I can't
talk to you right now". She had never said it was
over..in fact she never gave me any definitive answer
about anything..just that "it's obvious we're not
going out anymore isn't it?" (After making me wait
for almost two months), and telling me..(anytime I
asked).."Look, if you don't give me the time..your
going to get the answer you don't want to hear", so
I didn't ask anymore after that..I just let time go
by...until I couldn't take it anymore.
So after hearing that message I was angry and said to
myself; "forget it then", but that feeling
didn't last long...because I started thinking that she
was just angry because I embarrassed her...and she really
does need the time and space...to become more independant
and to experience her youth. She is only 19 and I just
turned 27 ..her parents were always ok with it, and it
always seemed like they liked me..(I get along great with
her mother..still to this day). (But I didn't go over for
dinner enough) :( So anyhow...more time passed and more
time passed...and one day I woke up so angry about the
whole thing, that I thought to myself...ok that's
it...I'm taking my chain back, (I gave her a really
expensive and delicate gold and platinum bracelet from my
grandmother a long time ago because I thought she was the
one, and still do.) Anyhow I phoned her because I was so
angry, (that she missed my birthday that week and didn't
even call), that I was going to say "Ok that's
it...I want my chain back..it's a symbol of my love and
you don't deserve it anymore". But guess what...she
wasn't home..her mom answered the phone..so I ended up
just talkin to her for a few minutes and that's about it.
The next day she phoned me (my ex), and asked me why
I'd phoned..and I just said "I don't know...",
and we talked...we finally had a normal conversation
after three months, and after the conversation she said
she'd call me later. Ok so a week or so passed and I was
getting something together for my friends..the Spike and
Mike animation festival was in town..so I wanted to do
something for my friends for once (because In the past
I've been to broke to be able to), and I decided to buy
them all tickets. I really wanted my ex to be there
too...because I couldn't take her the previous year..(by
the time I remembered it was too late..and I was probably
too broke at the time anyways). so anyhoo...there was
only a week to go before the show..so i waited..and
waited..and waited...until finally I said fuckit...I'll
call her. So I called her and asked her if she wanted to
go..but some lamer told her it was a lame show. (100%
wrong because the experience of the show, and the
atmosphere of the show is the funnest part of going),
Anyways..she said she couldn't go anyhow because she was
working...(the little rich girl's first job), so I left
it at that. The thing is..I had already bought the
tickets..6 of them..and everyone was going..but I only
wanted my close friends to go..the friends who were there
for me..and deserved some payback for once. :)
So the next day..I still had the xtra ticket and
no-one to give it to...and I thought to myself..ok...if I
ever want her back..best bet is to be her friend for
now..so I wrote her a letter asking her to tell me the
truth..that if she didn't love me anymore she should tell
me..and so on..and I also told her that I loved her too
much to not be her friend..that she needs REAL
friends..and that I would still be here for her as a
friend, and I also told her that if she wanted rid of me
forever..she should tell me, and I'll be gone. So the
same day of the night of the festival, I dropped the
letter off at her work..with a white rose along with the
ticket to the show..she was angry that I showed up at her
work..and told me to leave...but she still took the
letter with the rose..so I said..it's ok. it's ok, ..I'm
leaving. I left, went home..and there was a message on my
machine asking me not to show up at her work..and that
she wasn't interested in going to the show . I thought to
myself..well at least she called. :) So my friends and I
went to the show..had a great time..but I still kept
thinking that she would have loved the experience of it.
So a couple of days passed and she phoned me..She started
by asking me not to drop by her work, and I apologized
and explained why I felt I had to, then....she told me
that she didn't love me anymore.....and that she wasn't
attracted to me anymore. She also threw in that she was
seeing some pre-med student..but I still don't believe
that, becuase she certainly didn't have much to say about
him when I asked. ("He's determined", she
said..and I slightly got defensive and said "And I
wasn't???" And she got quiet for a moment and we
went on to talking about otehr things. :)
Anyhow..the conversation went fairly well considering,
it kept getting just a little more positive so I told her
again that I loved her too much to not be her friend and
I reassured her that the offer (of being her friend if
she wanted one..her "best friend".) still
stands..and she said if I was ok with it..she would be.
And we kept talking, the conversation lasted for about an
hour and a half..and at the end of it..she sounded
happy..she said it was nice talking to me again, and I
agreed. :) Only three days after that...she phoned me to
tell me she got fired from her job because she wouldn't
work late that day..(and she had been busting her butt
for a few weeks already), so I did my best to be
supportive as well as informative about what she might be
able to do about it..and that was that. ttyl. A few hours
later I got a call from an actor friend of mine..about
some party they wanted to film and that they needed some
extras...so I said sure..(even though I don't do that
type of work anymore), and I thought to
myself..well..L--- needs a job now..so..I'll wait a while
and maybe talk to her mom about it. I waited until after
ten..and it was a friday night, so I thought for sure
L--- would be out on the town and I was right, so I let
her mom know about the job and she was very gratefull, we
talked for awhile..she called me a sweety and told me to
keep in touch. (Which I thought was a really great
thing). :) (Her mom still likes me!) hhehe..so...the next
morning there was a message on my answering machine...it
was from L---..thanking me for the job opportunity and
asked me if it was ok if maybe she comes over that night
to do something casual. I'm thinking to myself..whoa..on
a Saturday night? She always wants to party on Saturday
nights!! Strange....
So I let the day go by thinking..well I don't
know..should I or shouldn't I...I was thinking at first
to say sorry I was busy...and I was doing my best to
avoid the call..but I picked up the phone thinking it was
someone else..and it was her...she asked..and I said it
might not be such a good idea..because I was busy working
(lame bullshit excuse), and she said it was ok..she could
just hang out with my roommate (no way is she interested
in him...he's almost 10yrs older than I am.) :) So I
said..no if your coming over..I'd want to spend the time
with you..and even though she left it open..I couldn't
say no. :) So...she came over...and I just happened to
have a bottle of wine left over from my bday..so I
cracked it open..and poured us a couple of glasses...she
was happy and smiling again..(and I sure missed her
smile), she inspected the house, :) and seemed pretty
happy with how it was actually clean for a change. :) She
asked me how I was feeling about things..and I just
reassured her that I thought "it" was best for
both of us and why. (And even though I think it's best
for her..well I don't really think it's best for me, even
though in a way it is..because I'm trying harder now to
get my life in order), so we sat down watched some T.V.
and during she had to use the phone twice. I'm thinking
to myself..waitasec..who's she calling when she's only
going to be here for a couple of hours? (And it was late
already..so I knew she wasn't really going to go anywhere
after..but I couldn't help but wonder), so she left after
a couple of hours..and said she'd call and see me in a
couple of weeks. weeks..errr. I said ok, and she left.
After she left...I couldn't help myself...I hit the
old redial on the phone..and heh..she had only called
home. And even though that was sort of the norm for
her..(to call her parents before she went home), I
thought again..."She was only here for two
hours!" But I was just happy that it wasn't the
"supposed" guy she was calling. Ok, that was
last weekend..and yesterday I got in the huge-est fight
with my mom, practically disowned her, (because of some
very negative things she said) (and has said most of my
life), and I drove home too fast and very angry. When I
got home I was so upset and depressed about everything
(because my mom decided to rub in the part about my
girlfriend and I breaking up because I have no money),
and I needed someone to talk to..someone who understood,
someone who understood what goes on in my family..someone
who understood my mom. The only person I could think of
was L---, (because she is a little like the both of us)
so I figured ok..let's see if she still cares..I'll call
her. So I called her, she turned me around right away by
telling me to stop sounding "whiney" but said
all the right things after that, she was supportive
again. Something I always loved about her.
Ok, so now that you know the story and what's going
on...Is there any way I can win back her love? I have
seen her twice (once each weekend) (on her request) and
spoken to her (she called) a couple times a week since.
Is there anything that I can do to make her attracted to
me again? She is so special to me..I love her more than
anything in the whole world, and I will always love
her..and for some reason my heart just won't give up on
her, so is there anything I can do? Or is it hopeless and
time for me to give up? :( Is it possible to win back a
woman's love??? P.S. I am really losing control here...
 From: Bernd
My gut feeling is that it is impossible to
"win" love. Maybe influence how much someone
"needs" us, or their emotions, or how
attractive (emotionally and physically) we are to them.
To me, genuine love is something we give unconditionally,
because as human beings, we all deserve it simply because
we exist. My wife and I are married, i.e. in a
relationship, because we voluntarily CHOOSE to be. If she
chose not to be married to me, that is ok, because love -
to me - means supporting her right to make her own
voluntary choices. I don't believe there is any
"right" person for me. (But that doesn't mean
I'm not wildly happy to have my wife as my partner!)
I'm going to take a stab in the dark - my hunch is
that your relationship with your girlfriend has a lot of
similarities with your relationship with your mom. The
blow-ups, the on-again, off-again type of roller coaster.
I know my relationship with my wife has a LOT in common
with my struggles with my mom. This, in my experience, is
pretty damn common. For me, discovering it helped me see
that a lot of times the anger I felt at my wife was all
mixed up in anger I still felt at mom, without me being
aware of it. I hated being rejected. Not that I like it
now, but at least I realize now a lot of OLD hurt comes
out when someone rejects me in the present. Another thing
I discovered was "attachment" isn't love. If I
feel pain when my wife is distant, then part of what I'm
suffering is withdrawal symptoms, not unlike a drug
addict. I NEEDED my wife's closeness, and the feeling
that she loved me, to help me feel good. When she cut off
the closeness I was looking for, I felt pain, alone,
abandoned, and pissed off. And I made damn sure she knew
it too. But it wasn't love. It was co-dependency,
something I had learned well from many other people's
examples, including my parents. As a codependant, I got
"hooked" on my wife, and suffered like hell
once she started taking away my "fix" (i.e. her
"love"). Co-dependants get into relationships
with codependants, or addicts.
It's quite likely that your girlfriend got attached to
you in a mixture of real love, and part codependence. And
vice versa. Problem is, it's often hard to tell which
one's at work. What helps me is remembering that real
love involves acceptance, and supporting each other's
freedom. Real love doesn't create pain or struggle,
although it will often bring OLD pain to our attention,
so that we can heal it. At 19, your girlfriend is just
beginning to explore love, and her own feelings as an
adult. It's a scary time. I was a true blue codependant
until I was 37, before I got jolted (now I'm a recovering
codependant, which means I'm still one, but getting a
little less so each day). Your statement "I'm really
losing control here" really brings back echoes of my
experiences. Ironically, that's exactly what we NEED to
do: lose control. We can't control another person's
feelings, or a relationship - although we often seem to
have the ILLUSION of control. "Losing control"
helps us become more honest with ourselves and our
partner, and helps us to accept what "is",
instead of trying to force things to turn out the way we
want.
There's no way of knowing whether your relationship is
hopeless or not. All I can do is try to take care of
myself best I can today, and do what feels right today.
When tomorrow comes, I'll try to do the same then. When
my wife and I split up for the second time, hopeless was
an understatement. I had learned by then to take one day
at a time though. And looking back, I think that was the
only way the miracle of us getting back together ever had
a chance of happening. My last thought is this: you and
your girlfriend will always have a relationship, whether
it's one in which you only think of each other, or
whether you spend time together. You can't control on
your own how much closeness you have, or how much time
you spend together. What you DO have some control over is
the QUALITY of the caring, support, love and friendship
you give to her, in whatever ways she's willing to accept
it. Good luck. Hope my rambling helps a tiny bit.
From: Nocturnal
Hi Bernd, and thanks for your great advice..and if you
don't mind me commenting on it...
My gut feeling is that it is impossible to
"win" love. Maybe influence how much someone
"needs" us, or their emotions, or how
attractive (emotionally and physically) we are to them.
When you say influence...what do you suggest? What are
the ways that I could influence her without trying to
control her? I still want her to have her freedom..but I
don't want her to forget how good it was.
To me, genuine love is something we give
unconditionally, because as human beings, we all deserve
it simply because we exist. My wife and I are married,
i.e. in a relationship, because we voluntarily CHOOSE to
be. If she chose not to be married to me, that is ok,
because love - to me - means supporting her right to make
her own voluntary choices. I definately agree with
that...even though it is difficult for me..I have no
choice but to respect what she needs and wants..because I
do love her. I don't believe there is any
"right" person for me. (But that doesn't mean
I'm not wildly happy to have my wife as my partner!)
Hehe, but for some reason...it feels as though she
"is" the right person, and even though I have
had many relationships..I have never felt this way about
anyone before.
I'm going to take a stab in the dark - my hunch is
that your relationship with your girlfriend has a lot of
similarities with your relationship with your mom.
Heh, yup..she is alot like my mom actually...now is that
a good thing or a bad thing?
The blow-ups, the on-again, off-again type of
roller coaster. I know my relationship with my wife has a
LOT in common with my struggles with my mom. This, in my
experience, is pretty damn common. For me, discovering it
helped me see that a lot of times the anger I felt at my
wife was all mixed up in anger I still felt at mom,
without me being aware of it. I hated being rejected. Not
that I like it now, but at least I realize now a lot of
OLD hurt comes out when someone rejects me in the
present. Yeh I understand what you mean, it sucks
don't it? :)
Another thing I discovered was
"attachment" isn't love. If I feel pain when my
wife is distant, then part of what I'm suffering is
withdrawal symptoms, not unlike a drug addict. I NEEDED
my wife's closeness, and the feeling that she loved me,
to help me feel good. When she cut off the closeness I
was looking for, I felt pain, alone, abandoned, and
pissed off. And I made damn sure she knew it too. But it
wasn't love. It was co-dependency, something I had
learned well from many other people's examples, including
my parents. As a codependant, I got "hooked" on
my wife, and suffered like hell once she started taking
away my "fix" (i.e. her "love").
So it came back all on it's own then pretty much?
Co-dependants get into relationships with
codependants, or addicts. It's quite likely that your
girlfriend got attached to you in a mixture of real love,
and part codependence. And vice versa. Problem is, it's
often hard to tell which one's at work. And I think
that's exactly the reason why she left me, because she
hasn't figured out which one is at work. What helps me is
remembering that real love involves acceptance, and
supporting each other's freedom. Real love doesn't create
pain or struggle, although it will often bring OLD pain
to our attention, so that we can heal it. I
agree..I've never felt this amount of love for
someone...but it's real..I know it is..because I
understand.
At 19, your girlfriend is just beginning to
explore love, and her own feelings as an adult. It's a
scary time. I was a true blue codependant until I was 37,
before I got jolted (now I'm a recovering codependant,
which means I'm still one, but getting a little less so
each day). Your statement "I'm really losing control
here" really brings back echoes of my experiences.
Ironically, that's exactly what we NEED to do: lose
control. We can't control another person's feelings, or a
relationship - although we often seem to have the
ILLUSION of control. "Losing control" helps us
become more honest with ourselves and our partner, and
helps us to accept what "is", instead of trying
to force things to turn out the way we want. Your
right...but friends of mine think that she is using
me..(including my mother), and that she has all the
control, so how do I change that?
There's no way of knowing whether your
relationship is hopeless or not. All I can do is try to
take care of myself best I can today, and do what feels
right today. When tomorrow comes, I'll try to do the same
then. When my wife and I split up for the second time,
hopeless was an understatement. I had learned by then to
take one day at a time though. And looking back, I think
that was the only way the miracle of us getting back
together ever had a chance of happening. What do you
mean exactly? (by that was the only way...)
My last thought is this: you and your girlfriend
will always have a relationship, whether it's one in
which you only think of each other, or whether you spend
time together. You can't control on your own how much
closeness you have, or how much time you spend together.
What you DO have some control over is the QUALITY of the
caring, support, love and friendship you give to her, in
whatever ways she's willing to accept it.
Thanks...and your right. :)
Good luck. Hope my rambling helps a tiny bit.
Bernd It did, in fact I would still like to hear what you
have to say.
From: Bernd
In response to your questions:
You said " When you say influence, what do
you suggest?" - I suggest that, while we can
influence another person's view of us or their feelings,
such attempts at influence are control, not part of
genuine love. The only loving way to influence others, I
believe, is by example, and that involves NOT trying to
influence them. It's like breathing; the more we try to
consciously control our breathing, the more unnatural it
becomes. When we are simply ourselves, things flow much
better - even if we don't THINK they are.
You said: "it feels as though she IS the
right person" - this kind of connection, I
believe happens when our potential partner has
characteristics - strengths and weaknesses - that fit
with ours like 2 jigsaw puzzle pieces. For example, I was
"calm", my wife was "emotional". With
her supplying the emotionalism I was "missing"
in myself, it was like that part of me finally felt
complete. But this is a trap; I need to feel my OWN
emotions fully. What happens in many relationships is
that these kind of "trades" become more
unmanageable with time, and eventually add to the
friction in a relationship. Like booze, it feels good at
first, but we pay a price down the road.
Is it a good thing or bad thing that your relationship
mirrors the one with your mom in many ways? Both. The
most important thing for me was to be aware, and remain
aware of it, and find out how that awareness could help
me understand me, my wife, and our struggles better.
You said "friends of mine think she is using
me, and that she has all the control" -
control, in my opinion, is always 50/50 - even when it
appears otherwise. It seesaws, but like 2 people on a
tightrope, it always returns to 50/50, and if it doesn't,
the relationship self-destructs. The paradox is that the
only way to reduce her control over you is to become more
aware of the ways in which you control HER and in which
you cooperate with her control; then begin the process of
finding out how to relate to her in healthier ways. I
would suspect that one of the ways you subconsciously
exercise control in this relationship has something to do
with your age, being several years older than her. Your
older age would bring with it some expectations of more
maturity, and wisdom, which puts pressure on her to defer
to your "wisdom", no matter how much you remind
her that you are equals. Becoming aware of something like
that can help you see where and when it affects the
hidden power struggles that are a part of most
relationships.
You asked how my taking one day at a time was the
"only way" our miracle could have happened (my
wife and I reuniting) - when I stop trying to force
things happen, I let a magic that exists all around us go
to work. I believe this magic is very much of our
spiritual existence. In plain terms, when I stopped
trying to force my wife to do what I wanted, and let her
find out what was best for her, it dawned on both of us
that we both were fucking up our lives, and could no
longer blame the other. Our relationship changed - from
one where we expected the other to help us be happy, to
one where we began on a shared journey to heal ourselves,
to find happiness within ourselves, and to SHARE by
example. We both were headed in a new direction, but the
same direction, and we realized that we could use our
past struggles to build something out of the ashes, far
better than what we ever had. If that makes any sense.:)
That's it for today! Thanks for responding.
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